Wednesday, April 13, 2011

Ask Dr. Jimberly: Why the Lion System?

Some time ago, I received an email from someone with the following in it:
I started with the lion dvd's several years back as that is what was recommended by ATS, but I am far more interested and physically inclined to the dragon system, so that's been my focus for the last year and a half or so. Also, I am trying to start up a study group in my area - what do I need to do to make such a group recognized by the YSB association at large?
I'll address the second question in this inquiry, about what needs to happen to start a study group, at a later date so as to keep this post as direct and on a single topic as possible. If you're interested in starting a study group in your area and don't have the foggiest idea of what to do, hang on tight for the answer! I'll probably get to it within the week or thereabouts. In the meantime, check out this related post on getting started: A Yin Style Baguazhang Beginner's Guide. Much of the info overlaps.

The reason I'm focusing on the "Why Lion?" question now is that it came up again for me. This week at our study group's weekly get-together, one of the newer members asked me point-blank why we study the Lion System first in Yin Style Baguazhang. I figure this is probably a pretty common question, and so I'll be happy to include the response to the email I got and kind bolster it with what I told our training buddy.

So far as choosing animal systems to work with in Yin Style Baguazhang, the recommendation to start with the Lion System is a good one, and if you start a study group in your area, you'll definitely be doing some Lion System for a good while there. He Jinbao (following Dr. Xie) very strongly feels that essentially every practitioner, particularly young, male practitioners, should get their foundation in the Lion System. There are a number of excellent reasons for this decision. I'll give a partial list of those with some explanation of the ones I'm giving:
  1. To be a bit theoretical with you, the Lion is the animal representing the system for the Qian (Heaven) Trigram, which is, in the theory of the bagua, where everything begins and ends. More tractably within this concept is that this trigram is considered the "father" of all of the others and therefore is kind of a foundation for all of the other animal systems. In particular, the Lion System is primarily designed around putting out force and relentlessly attacking. When this skill is combined with the yin (removing, following) aspects of the Unicorn System, all of the other animal systems are supposed to be quite easy to learn, relatively speaking. 
  2. The Lion System is the fastest to build the body and physical strength as well as the overall qi of the body. It will, if trained diligently, make you much stronger and much more resistant to attack. Obviously, it is very uncomfortable to train because of that, and it is allegedly the "most physically demanding" of the animal systems, although it is not the most uncomfortable or painful.
  3. The Lion System's fundamental strategy is interlocking or interlocking the techniques. This carries a few meanings -- the simplest is that each technique is interlocked with the previous one. Since the concept of "interlocked techniques" is contained within the full name of the art ("The Swimming-Body, Interlocked, Eight Trigram Method of Yin Fu"), understanding the Lion's method of interlocking techniques is crucial to success in the art. In a simple way, you can think of this as a system built on the idea of combinations of techniques as well as what I've said above. On a slightly deeper level, a goal of training the Lion System is interlocking horizontal and vertical forces, which is challenging.
  4. The Lion System emphasizes the use of the waist as both "engine" and "transmission," if you'll take the analogy. In other words, the Lion System generates force at the waist (primarily... all forces in YSB are full-body) and it emits force from the waist. The Phoenix, by contrast, generates forces at the waist and emits them at the shoulder, and the Dragon generates forces from the waist and emits them via the legs. Since all of the animal systems except Unicorn have a strong aspect of using the waist to generate much of the force (Unicorn removes it using the waist!), having a solid foundation with Lion System is key to success.
  5. It has been said, but by whom I don't know, that "anyone who has become good at baguazhang was good at the Lion System." He Jinbao has said that this fact is because of the foundational nature of the Lion System, not because it's particularly powerful or "better."
  6. The Interlocking strategy is simultaneously relatively simple and deeply complex, offering accessibility and then lots of room for deep study. The simplicity lies in the fact that most of the body is held firm and stable in the Lion System, and fewer moving parts means less complexity. There is also relatively little removal or transformation of forces, although those aspects exist in the Lion System. Its changes are more forceful -- hooking and scraping -- and it makes very good use of the notion of forcing openings.
This is really the tip of the iceberg, but they make for some good reasons to consider focusing first on the Lion System. The best reasons are obvious after about two years of hard, serious, intelligent practice in the Lion System -- noticing the changes it will bring to your body. 

To interlude into a future explanation, a highly pragmatic reason to focus on the Lion System if you're interested in pursuing a study group of your own, though, would be along these lines, although I do not intend to speak for He Jinbao or Yin Style Baguazhang International here: If you're interested in forming a study group, you're welcome to train what you want, but if you are interested in eventually having He Jinbao and Matt Bild come to your area to train you there, it seems that you can expect that the first two or three workshops you have there will be entirely Lion System (I'd guess because He Jinbao feels it's a critical foundation). Also, allowing a study group to focus on other animal systems in the past seems to have been a failed experiment, and so Lion it is until you "graduate" from Lion. Furthermore, and very importantly and pragmatically, all of your resources so far as visiting existing groups go, i.e. opportunities for hands-on training, are going to be most proficient in Lion with a growing skills set in Phoenix.

So, there you have it! Lion makes a solid foundation, and that's probably the best reason for "Why Lion?" in Yin Style Baguazhang. For those loyal readers that are interested... Beast Mode continues. More on that soon!

10 comments:

Far7anR said...

So does the lion system (or Yin Baguazhang in general) focus solely on horizontal circular force, or does it also have vertical circles like that of xingyi & straight linear force like some movements in taiji?

I ask as a wing chun practitioner who can't choose between studying taijiquan or baguazhang as my next system - any advice on that would be nice, too, thanks :)

Jim said...

Hi, and thanks for the comment and question!

They say that Yin Style Bagua is "spherical" in a sense, meaning that it emphasizes circular forces in any of the "eight" directions. That said, there are most certainly vertical circles involved in Yin Style, and certainly those are present in the Lion System. The Lion System seeks, as a primary goal, to interlock horizontal and vertical forces, and to do that, both must be present. It also interlocks straight and round forces, and so both of those are present as well. What this often means is that a technique will begin straight and end round, or vice versa, or that a technique will be straight/round on top and the opposite on bottom.

I'm not familiar enough with xingyi or taiji to answer your questions in reference to those arts, and I can say the same thing about wing chun. I don't do any of those arts. I do Yin style bagua, although I have some background in Okinawan karate and Brazilian jiu jitsu (not enough in the later case to make much comment). I know a tiny amount about xingyi and taiji only from what friends have told me or what I've seen, my personal experience being limited to a couple of introductory classes in taiji only.

If you want my advice on which art to practice next, I would advocate baguazhang, especially if you're young and fit and are training an art for martial use. Though it's not entirely possible, it can be difficult to find legit martial taiji.

If you can, make every effort to check out this year's Fall Tour and get some hands-on training directly from He Jinbao to experience real baguazhang at its finest. Here's a list: http://www.yinstylebaguazhang.com/tour.html

Don't by shy with more questions and commentary. Much appreciated!

Jim said...

Sorry.. the last comment should say that it's not entirely IMpossible to find legit martial taiji. I got distracted while typing that sentence. Sorry!

Far7anR said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Far7anR said...

Thanks for the reply! One of my biggest issues with taking up baguazhang was that I thought it would only be circles - I love circles and their metaphorical meaning, but I would like a balance as I felt sometimes linear forces are appropriate in certain situations.

I love what I have seen about Yin Baguazhang. I have been looking at it for over a year now, but I just have been to scared to commit to something that I wasn't 100% sure I would have no regrets about.

I am going to medical school in the Caribbeans, so I will not have access to a teacher for a couple of years until my clinical rotations in the United States. Will the Lion System DVDs be alright for a start? I think it was on your blog some time ago that I read that the DVD's aren't that detailed, which scares me as a beginner...

Also, what does He Jinbao say about cross-training? While many internal martial arts masters do it, others say that you can't really master all more than one or two systems and that someone who claims to be a master of multiple arts either have one specialty or they know only some of each art.

I heard that He Jinbao's lineage does not condone cross-training, especially in other internal martial arts, according to someone on Rum Soaked Fist with the username D_Glenn. D_Glenn said things about how the mechanics and chi training is different, like how baguazhang practitioners should be soft to the touch and not not show any resistance until the opponent as already caught in the gears of bagua techniques, as well as a lot of other things. Would you agree?

It's just that I really wanted to practice taiji while learning baguazhang as I really admire taiji at least for how the form makes me feel calm and introspective, as well as I admire its minimalist approach (although you are right about it being difficult to find a good teacher to show you combat application), not to mention that I don't ever plan on giving up Wing Chun. Do you know anything about what He Jinbao would say about that?

One thing I like in life is minimalism and directness (not necessarily the shortest distance, but the shortest distance that still gets the job done efficiently and wisely), which is what lead me to Wing Chun and Wu Taijiquan, both which have small frames. However, I like the large frame of Yin Baguazhag because big frames train the body better, and you need to balance your internal with your external. However, do you think in application Yin Baguazhang can be minimalistic and/or direct, like the great old masters who can shock you back 5 feet onto your butt with just an bit of visible movement? I ask with the following bagua video in mind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYFcUxep9TE&feature=channel_video_title

I am sorry to bombard you with questions, but when I am told to not be shy, I tend to jump on that headfirst, as my past sifus know all to well haha.

Thank you so much for your blog - it's amazing! I wanted to jump right into Dragon the past year, but after reading your blog about the lion system I am really excited and looking forward to learning more about it :)

Jim said...

Hi again,

The Lion DVDs from ATS are good enough for a beginner. You must go into it knowing that you're learning with a grain of salt, if you will, and that you'll be getting some rather significant corrections when you do get some face time with He Jinbao or other YSB practitioners. That's fine, though. It's how most of us have started, and it's how most of us have built our foundations. The videos leave something to be desired, particularly in the standing strengthening department, but they're quite good considering what they're trying to document.

I don't know anything about He Jinbao being particularly hard on people about training other arts, although I get the distinct impression that he doesn't much care one way or the other to hear about it. I don't presume to speak for him on the matter, but I'm pretty sure his interest and attention lies entirely in seeing how much progress you've had in your Yin Style from one meeting to the next. If your other arts are ingraining bad habits, from a YSB perspective, or if they're eating at too much of your training time and energy, then it's probably fair to say that you're not giving YSB your all. That, then, is up to you. Again, I don't presume to speak for him or his opinions of taiji or wing chun.

I don't think DGlenn quite captures whatever it is that I've seen in bagua. It is true that we emphasize keeping our intention hidden, but I think blanket statements about being soft to the touch until this or that time isn't quite right. There are times to be hard and times to be yielding. There are times to overpower and times to be more subtle. Yin Bagua encompasses all of the eight trigrams, and it therefore considers all approaches in their proper circumstances.

Applications in Yin Style tend to reflect this kind of attitude, from what I've seen. Most hurt. A lot. Sometimes they have that knocking the opponent around quality like in the video, but usually they hurt a lot and make someone hit the ground hard, often close by. They are minimalist in that they are quick and made up of a small number of techniques. They're complex in that the techniques are constantly changing as needed. We use the saying: "If the guy doesn't block, he loses. If the guy does block, he still loses." On my most recent post, as I'd guess you've seen, is a video of He Jinbao doing applications. They're all very much like that: very lively and very direct.

Don't be shy with questions! Ask away. I'll do what I can to answer!

Far7anR said...

Hey, I have another clip by D_Glenn to ask you about:

" the way Baguazhang ideally trains is with a lot more tension, or tautness in the limbs and body while also learning to put out a lot of force like Xingyi. So we expand outward and put out a lot of 'intent' into a strike but hold part of it back with tension. We train with hardness (硬 ying) so that we can be soft when we fight. The resultant body type is different from Xingyi as there is no 'weiqi' at the surface for the opponent to listen to, and unlike Taijiquan, on contact our body just feels like a lot of soft, pliable flesh, and one can't really feel the bone structure beneath. A baguazhang person feels non-threatening until it's way too late and you're completely bound up inside the gears of a giant machine. A Baguazhang practitioner wants to be completely non-threatening, almost emanating a sort of compassion, in order to invite or entice the enemy in close. If we scared the enemy away before contact then all our tactics and techniques would just have to end up being like Xingyiquan and then we might as well just train that style. This Baguazhang body type, by design, and coming from it's specific practices and training are a hallmark of the style."

Does that agree with your experience? Do the Lion System DVD's cover this?

Far7anR said...

Oh, by the way, I am referring particularly to the bit about being taut in practice. How do I know how taut I should be, and when I should be taut, if I am learning from the DVDs?

Jim said...

Sorry for the significant delay in response. I've been busy, and we had our workshop to attend to.

Generally, I would agree with what DGlenn is saying here with the exception, again, that it's too limited. I don't know what style of baguazhang he studied, but Yin Style is complete. Thus statements like this generally tend to miss something. Each of the eight animals has its own unique characteristics, and while his statements seem to generally apply, I don't think that everything here accords well with my experience. Particularly, that the baguazhang practitioner feels non-threatening until it's too late is and is not appropriate to the Lion System's methods. The Lion System is threatening and aggressive from the first moment, although that doesn't mean it doesn't contain subtlety as well.

Let me elaborate on that before I get to the "tautness" question you asked more specifically. In the Lion System, the strikes are ferocious and overpowering, seeking to cause knockouts and knockdowns, frequently directly overpowering the opponent. They also can be used to set up the final methods of the Lion System: seizing and grasping (qinna), which is sometimes described as the yin within the yang of the Lion System. There, you have this feeling of the setup being non-threatening, in a sense (the grab isn't secured until it is too late, but the striking used to create the set-up is DEFINITELY threatening by design). Seizing and grasping are more subtle, but they are nowhere near the whole story.

As far as tautness is concerned, you need to worry about the proper feeling to generate power. The Lion DVD does not clearly express this unless you know exactly what to look and listen for--making the demand on getting some face-time with He Jinbao rather high on the priority list for anyone that wants to get good at this. Here's what you need to know:

The Lion generates power from the waist. The body is held mostly taut but in a natural way. The joints of the arm and held mostly fixed, but you have to be natural about it. At the moment of changing, there is yin or yielding. As the strike is proceeding, there is not, at least not in the Lion System. The arm and its connection to the body are very solid, so a certain amount of tautness is required for this. The part of the arm that serves as the striking surface must also be made as hard as possible, usually the forearm or fist. That requires a lot of tautness as well, although technically, this requirement is satisfied by applying roughly 70% full tautness until the moment of impact, at which point it either becomes 100% taut or changes.

The tautness that you really seek in the Lion System is used to generate force. You must hold tension in both sides of the waist on strikes that involve rotation of the waist. You must find the tautness in other aspects of waist movement (there are four movements of the waist, and all strikes in the Lion System utilize at least two of those). The general pattern is taut, tauter, loose to strike, solid finish. This fits with the slow-slow-fast rhythm of striking. Wind up and become taut (slow), carry the strike across (slow) while increasing tautness, when tautness becomes maximal break it loose to emit the force from the waist (fast), and then sit down and be solid on the finish. Try to look for that. HJB says it takes a long while of looking to find it, maybe 3-5 years if you really know what you're looking for, but you can get a sense of it much faster than that.

Unknown said...

Hi Jim,

I have just discovered your blog today and am very grateful for it. Have read around 10 posts already and found great insight and inspiration.

About the animal system, my main attraction is for the Dragon, not Lion. Do you think it is ok to start directly with Dragon? From what I have read in both the main YSB websites I conclude that it is ok, though more advisable to start with Lion.

I`ll give you a bit of my background so you can tailor your answer better. I am a 29 years old male, and for 9-10 years have practiced Norther Shaolin Kung Fu & Lohan. The practice was very much physically demanding, with hundreds of high kicks, punches, jumps, full body sweeps, etc. Of course, also sitting in DEEP horse stance (legs parallel to the ground) for some time. I have also done weapons practiced with heavy staffs, sabers, swords, and daggers. That is all to say that I believe my body already have some good basic development of strength, flexibility and hardness. In my training I would swea

Thanks for your time!

"The most important thing when studying the martial arts is not to be lazy. These skills are not easily attained. For them, one must endure a lot of suffering." -He Jinbao